ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
President Trump has said for years that he wants Jimmy Kimmel off the air. Now ABC and its parent company Disney have put the show on indefinite hiatus. In another part of the program, we walk through the specific steps that led to this. One key player here is the chairman of the Federal Communications Commission, Brendan Carr. Today, he applauded ABC's decision, posting on X, quote, "broadcast TV stations have always been required by their licenses to operate in the public interest."
To help us understand the FCC's role in what stations broadcast, Tom Wheeler is with us now. He chaired the FCC under President Obama. Welcome.
TOM WHEELER: Hello, Ari.
SHAPIRO: What was your initial reaction to ABC's decision to suspend Kimmel's program?
WHEELER: Well, you know, my reaction was to Brendan Carr's reaction to what ABC decided and the fact that - what Kimmel had said. Because what Brendan did was come out and say to the affiliates, hey, you guys ought to do something about this, which is a highly unusual if not unprecedented role for the chairman of the FCC.
SHAPIRO: Unusual, unprecedented - talk about the leverage that the FCC has over affiliates, saying, not to Disney or ABC, you need to do something about this, but to the affiliates specifically.
WHEELER: It's huge because the affiliates are (inaudible) on airwaves that are licensed by the FCC. And therefore, every heartbeat of the FCC chairman is something they pay a lot of attention to. And the shocking thing was when Brendan Carr comes out and says, well, we can do this two ways, the hard way or the easy way, that's really a subtle way of sounding like some B movie actor saying it'd be a terrible thing, you know, if something were to happen to that license.
SHAPIRO: Some would argue it's not that subtle.
WHEELER: Yeah.
SHAPIRO: In that podcast interview, Carr said broadcasters, quote, "are running the possibility of fines or license revocations from the FCC if we continue to run content with a pattern of news distortion." Of course, Kimmel doesn't work for the news division. He's a comedian. But can the FCC fine or revoke licenses that distort news in the view of the chairman?
WHEELER: No. That - if this had gone to court, then I have absolutely no doubt that the First Amendment would have kicked in, and there would not be authority in the statute even. But, Ari, you know, there's something that's even more powerful here. It's far beyond the comments of a comic, and that is on the plane on the way back from Europe today, President Trump said that they should pull the licenses of any affiliates who are, quote, "against him," unquote. And it raised the dynamics of this whole thing beyond a late-night comic to autocratic control of the media.
SHAPIRO: Well, except if, as you say, the First Amendment would win in court, why is the media following what the FCC chairman or potentially the president wants?
WHEELER: Because their future is controlled. Let me just give you one specific example with - there is now a merger pending before the FCC that - of Nexstar, the largest station group in the country, and Tegna, another large station group. And the FCC not only has to approve that merger, but they also have to change the rules. Now, let's just think back. When was the last time we saw the FCC look at a broadcast merger? Oh, it was CBS. And Brendan Carr made it clear he would not approve that merger until CBS settled with Donald Trump on the specious suit about "60 Minutes."
SHAPIRO: So obviously, there are business interests here, but to return to Brendan Carr's complaint, does the FCC have an obligation to make sure that broadcasters are accurate?
WHEELER: The job of the FCC - of course, if there is a clear and misleading misrepresentation, if there is obscenity and things like this. But the fact of the matter is that this is a judgment call as to what is, quote, "the public interest," unquote, interpretation. And Brendan Carr has just taken that - the vagueness of that term and turned it into a tool for the Trump administration to intimidate and coerce those that they license.
SHAPIRO: Late-night comedians have always criticized and mocked politicians. When you were chair of the FCC, did complaints about late-night comedians ever cross your radar? Did you ever consider taking action against them?
WHEELER: You know, I don't recall any late-night comedian complaints. I recall other complaints, but I always believe that the First Amendment was principle here. And...
SHAPIRO: Did those other complaints ever come from the White House?
WHEELER: No.
SHAPIRO: How important is that independence from the president and administration?
WHEELER: It's crucial. And that was the way that the Congress set up the FCC in 1934, to be an independent agency. But last February, Donald Trump issued an executive order overruling that and saying it's no longer an independent, that it will review all of its considered actions and final actions with the White House.
SHAPIRO: President Obama, former President Obama, who you served when you were chair of the FCC, today tweeted, this is precisely the kind of government coercion that the First Amendment was designed to prevent, and media companies need to start standing up rather than capitulating to it. What kind of cost might a media company pay if they were to try to defy the federal government in a situation like this? I mean, you said you think they would win in court.
WHEELER: Yes, they would win in court.
SHAPIRO: But even if they do eventually reach that ultimate outcome, what price do they pay in the meantime?
WHEELER: So it's clear that the Trump administration is a vengeance-based administration and that they would be looking for opportunities to, you know, take a stick to them. You know, what we're looking at right now, Ari, is a new iteration of the cancel culture that Trump for so long had complained about. This is cancel culture 2.0, where you leverage the FCC to affect what people hear by influencing what media outlets can say.
SHAPIRO: And do you think Trump's statement aboard Air Force One today that licenses could be revoked that cover him in what he deems an unflattering way could be the next step, or do you think it's an idle threat?
WHEELER: It's frightening, and he threw it to Brendan Carr, said he's a great patriot and I trust him to make the decision. But that kind of intimidation on matters protected by the First Amendment is absolutely outrageous.
SHAPIRO: Tom Wheeler is former chair of the Federal Communications Commission, and he is a current visiting fellow at the Brookings Institution. Thank you very much.
WHEELER: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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