MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Today, we are hearing reactions from Washington to Caracas and beyond to the U.S. operation overnight in Venezuela to seize Nicolas Maduro and his wife. Let's get a diplomatic perspective now from a former U.S. ambassador to Venezuela. James Story held that post from 2018 to 2023, serving as President Trump's - serving during President Trump's first term as well as under President Biden. Ambassador Story, thanks for being here.
JAMES STORY: Thank you so much for having me today.
KELLY: So to recap the last 24 hours or so, we have had a massive operation in the wee hours of the night to snatch the president of Venezuela and bring him to New York to stand trial. Good idea?
STORY: Well, I mean, at the end of the day, what we've had in Venezuela, we've asked the opposition to do so much, the international community. They've protested. They've negotiated. They ran and won an election. And the man has stayed in power because he has been running a criminal organization. Now, the tactical success of what happened early hours of this morning, that's one thing. The strategic long-term implications are completely different.
KELLY: And let's stay with that, the strategic long-term implications, I mean, I'm just trying to picture what the next week looks like in Venezuela. The million-dollar question seems to be, how is it going to be the - how will this actually work, for the U.S. to run Venezuela?
STORY: Well, it's definitely not regime change if you've only removed Maduro and his wife, Cilia Flores, but you've left all these other people who are sanctioned and who have committed crimes against humanity, who are definitely very bad actors. They remain behind. And these are the people that are responsible for kidnapping and torturing American citizens, as well as all the kind of politically motivated domestic terrorism, if you want to call it that, that's happened inside of Venezuela that have led to 9 million people leaving. So in that scenario, we're going to be working with them somehow for the United States to somehow provide a level of stability in the country to run a government so that the oil industry can get off the ground. I didn't understand it.
KELLY: What's the best-case scenario for what this looks like?
STORY: I mean, the best-case scenario is that somehow - if this is the approach that the president has, the best-case scenario is that somehow this was - redounds surprisingly in a stable transition period. But that's putting hope as a course of action, and hope is not a strategy. And what I really - which is really unfortunate is the fact that we are forgetting about the results of an election that took place last year when somebody won. Edmundo Gonzalez won an election. Maria Corina Machado is the head of the opposition. And the president dismissed that completely today, which was very surprising to me.
KELLY: He called Machado a very nice woman but said she doesn't have the respect. Let me turn you to the - how this fits within what we're trying to understand as Trump's overarching foreign policy. Like, how does this fit within Trump's America First doctrine?
STORY: Well, if you read the national security strategy, it's quite clear the president has turned his focus to the western hemisphere. And as a person who spent nearly 30 years of his diplomatic career in the western hemisphere, I think it's right to be focused on the Western Hemisphere in the right ways because everything that happens in Latin America has an impact on the United States.
What I'm nervous about is the idea that somehow now - well, Europe, you have to take care of Russia. That's on you, dealing with the Ukraine situation. And if I were Taiwan or even South Korea, I'd be wondering right now, to what extent are the security guarantees really going to hold?
KELLY: Yeah. Both Republican and Democratic members of Congress - we just had one of them on the program there raising questions about why it would be OK for the U.S. to invade another country and capture that country's leader, but not for, say, Vladimir Putin to do the same to President Zelenskyy of Ukraine. I guess the...
STORY: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Broader question is, if you are sitting today in Moscow, in Beijing, what are you thinking right now?
STORY: Well, I think if you're sitting in Beijing, you're thinking, well, as soon as I have the ability to go out to Taiwan, I think the gloves are off and I'm going to do it. If you're in Russia - they haven't really changed their point of view. I mean, they were already doing this kind of thing before. I do think it's important for us to...
KELLY: Even Putin hasn't gone into Kyiv, kidnapped Zelenskyy and brought him to Moscow for trial, though.
STORY: Well, he certainly tried. He definitely tried. If he had had his way at the very beginning of the war, he - with a lot of hubris and not understanding the martial spirit in Ukraine, they thought they were going to march straight into Kyiv, but they weren't able to do so. What's stopping them was their inability to do it, not the fact that they wanted to do it.
KELLY: And I guess I'm putting this question to you as a diplomat because once you cross a line, what are the rules that govern the global order?
STORY: Well, I mean, it's a great question. I mean, the fact of the matter is, we're living in a golden age because of the rules-based order that was established at the end of World War II. And that is under direct assault by the administration right now, to say it how it is. There's a reason I'm a former diplomat, not a current diplomat, I guess.
KELLY: I was going to ask if you had any interest now that there may be a job opening in Caracas.
STORY: Well, I'm sure there is a long line of people that there - evidently, there's not, actually. Secretary Rubio will be doing it, according to what the president said earlier, but - and Pete Hegseth. But the fact of the matter is, international institutions exist, and they have created untold economic prosperity worldwide, stopped wars. We're living in this wonderful age, frankly. It seems like it's all bad news, but it's not. People live longer and are healthier, have more access to calories and more access to medicine. All of that is now up for debate.
KELLY: That's James Story. He was U.S. ambassador to Venezuela from 2018 to 2023. Ambassador Story, thank you.
STORY: Thank you for having me. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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